[Werking Title] with Eliza Lambert: James Kim on the Future of Audio Fiction
By: Eliza Lambert-Arnold
Audio fiction is the oft-overlooked sibling of nonfiction in the podcasting scene. James Kim helped change that with his critically-acclaimed indie project, Moonface. He’s continued to be a creative force, innovating on format to tell layered stories. And if you listen closely, you can hear James’ public radio origins. He says, “I wanted to try to tell a story that felt real, that can resonate with people in the same way a ‘[This] American Life’ story pick.”
For [Werking Title], James talks about how to stack your podcast team, why today’s shows all sound the same, and artistic freedom.
Eliza Lambert-Arnold: What was your first ever job?
James Kim: First ever?
ELA: Ever.
JK: I was a server at Chili's. My one memorable moment is, I was carrying some sizzling fajitas, and I didn't call ‘behind.’ You know, you have commands. I was on the floor, and a server got up and was running and hit me, and the fajita fell off of my palm and almost hit a baby. It was terrifying.
ELA: What skills from that job do you find that you still use today?
JK: With serving, I learned a lot of like multitasking. Customers all have different wants and needs, not only with their food, but their experience in a restaurant. Each table is different. It's a lot like handling studio notes as a freelancer, if you're working at different companies, trying to understand what exactly they need and want and trying to adapt. That's a skill that I've found useful. Serving is so so stressful, and it makes everything else feel not as stressful.
ELA: If you almost fajita a baby, you're like, “Yeah, I can do a tape sync. That's gonna be fine.” You've come a long way from there, obviously. The part that I was curious about was how you found your way to audio fiction, or did you set out to specialize in it?
JK: When podcasting became an option, there was this sense of newness and a lack of rules. I liked that. Around 2017 or so, I'd been in audio for about six years and I was tired of the public radio format, the way you tell a story through the lens of public radio. But audio fiction felt like a genre that no one in public radio wanted to touch.
I was so baffled by it. The things that I am influenced by are films and TV shows and other forms of media, and I think they speak to as much truth [as] a five-minute radio story does. I wanted to try to tell a story that felt real, that can resonate with people in the same way a ‘[This] American Life’ story pick.
ELA: How do you think the artistic freedom has continued, or has it changed since you've been working?
JK: Really good question. If we're just talking about the limitations of what you can do, there are more possibilities of what you can do now than you ever could. When I was trying to pitch around a fiction show in 2017, there were maybe five places I could pitch. Now, there are so many places that you can pitch your story idea to. There's always the option to release something for free and on your own. The quality I like about podcasting is that anyone can go off and make an idea that they have a deep passion to make. The reason I feel complicated is because there's so much potential to inject this energy that a lot of these creators have, of the endless possibilities of the types of stories and how to tell them. But I just don't think that energy is really [reaching] the places that have the most potential to make something big and grand or even daring.
I wish there was more risk-taking at places have a lot of influence.
ELA: Yeah, and can afford it, maybe.
JK: Exactly.
ELA: It also speaks to how long you've been in the industry. With all that perspective, do you have a sense of where the industry is going? How it's changed?
James Kim: It's going to be messy because I'm still thinking of it. In terms of the future of podcasting, what's clear is that the boom (specifically when Spotify got into the scene, that era,) we aren't going to get back there. That mindset is hard, for me personally, to stomach because that was such a creative time.
It felt like bold ideas and new voices were really being highlighted, with a lot of new and big money coming in. That's not the dynamic anymore. As an independent creator, it has forced me to think of my ideas in different ways; in terms of marketability and in terms of the amount of content it can generate. I want to survive and make a living off of making podcasts. That's just my dream and I want to do that as long as I can.
With the current climate of the ideas that are being taken into consideration, and the types of creators that they're looking for, it's just not as realistic as it used to be. What I do hope for – as this industry continues to develop and solidify and the big players cement themselves – is that there's also space for smaller, more focused, boutique businesses that are also thriving.
They all exist in TV, and all of these other media. They have a lot of places where they can highlight new voices that don't really fit with the sort of $200 million budgets that are currently being spent on some of these films or TV shows.
The Gotham does exist, Tribeca does exist. There are all these places. But I'm hoping more studios pop up that can be like ‘the Neon of podcasting’ or ‘the HBO of podcasting.’ That would be exciting.
ELA: Totally. It does make me wonder if you're gonna do that? But maybe a better question is, what's next for you?
JK: I mean, I'm not gonna lie, creating in audio is exhausting. It takes so much effort and time. You don't get paid anything, really. It's not something I can continue doing. I would like to eventually transition to being in a position where I'm highlighting new creators. That's something that brings me a lot of joy, throughout my entire career. I don't want my entire life [to be] trying to make my next show. It's tiring. I've done it.
It'd be exciting for me to help out new voices and new creators with new ideas that excite, that I could never dream of. Then it injects more livelihood into podcasting. Man, we're all sounding the same. I hate to be so blunt about it, but it's true. People tell the stories in the same way, they all narrate it the same way. Granted, there are shows that break the mold and inject a new life into our form. I want more of those shows in the space. The stuff I love is like, you hear a creator's piece of work and you know it's that person ‘cause they just have their signature style. I want people to gush about the Sofia Coppolas of audio, Barry Jenkins of audio.
The one thing that I will say is it makes me excited to see is when creators highlight and continue to work with the same team of people, like in film. People are like, “Oh man, that was shot by Roger Deakins!” or, “Oh my gosh, that was scored by Ryuichi Sakamoto!” They also have their signature style. When creators work with these individuals who have such a strong vision in their own specialty. Even music, they use the same producers, everyone is using Max Martin or Jack Antonoff. That producer comes with their own signature sound. Not only is it a creator who is getting the love and attention, but it's the team that that creator works with. Then you look at that team of people to see what else they do. They, too, have their own signature style with a facet of audio that you never thought of.
ELA: Right, when the team becomes stacked.
JK: Yes. It normalizes that it's important when you make a show that it's a team of people that have been selected specifically to make that show, right? Rather than the current model, where it's a lot of production houses who take the creator's idea and then it goes through a pipeline, you know?
Then everyone on the show becomes nameless, outside of the person who made it. To me, that's one of the big reasons why a lot of shows sound simpler. But when you make everyone individualistic on a show, that's when magic really happens.
ELA: I think that's a really lovely place to leave it. Thank you so much, James.
